Talk:Flag of the United Kingdom

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Heraldry and vexillology

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Proportion 3:5

The info-box states that the proportion of the flag is 3:5 but the flag shown is 1:2. So which is correct? ♆ CUSH ♆ 10:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Both are correct; there are 2 ratios.

The ratio that's used on land is 3:5... (shown here)

The other one, of which is 1:2, is the correct ratio out at sea. (also shown here)

Simple! The 3:5 ratio is also apparently used by the British Army. Kxeon (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I know for theory that's not true. A 1:2 ratio flag can be seen at Buckingham Palace. Also a 3:5 ratio flag was also seen on sea according to a retweet by @yrreb_xela. OMGShay 92 (talk) 16:19, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How would you know? Do you study flags? Conor M98 (talk) 16:21, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well… sort of!

When I’m interested in a thing’s flag, I go and try and find it! If I see a flag I’ve never seen before, I’ll try and take a picture of it when possible.

In this case, I got interested in the Flag of the UK, so I checked it out. I looked at the Flag Institute in the UK, and it turns out there was a “Union Flag Bill” in 2008. It said lots of things, so I’ll let you read it for yourself as well. However… it, according to the flag institute, it couldn’t progress farther than it’s first reading.

(Why did I reply to this when he may not have been replying to me at all🤦‍♂️) Kxeon (talk) 04:39, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any particularly view on which version of the flag shoudl be shown (first) in the infobox. 3:5 is on one level the traditional proportions for British land flags, and is used by the Army, but there are plenty of official situations which have been influenced by the naval tradition of 1:2 flags. It would be a mistake to say that one or other is "the correct" proportions, or even to suggest that the two versions are different flags. Vexillology on Wikipedia gives the impression that proportions of flags are a necessary defining feature of flag designs way too much. JPD (talk) 05:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would support using the 3:5 ratio version first and the 1:2 version second. While actual usage is far from consistent, the flags of England, Wales, and Scotland all use 3:5 as standard on Wikipedia so I tend toward the position that the 3:5 version ought to be listed first.CorwenAv (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wanted to throw my vexillogical hat in the ring having studied with the Flag Institute and researched our national flag extensively; the 1:2 version is flown from the Palace of Westminster and most official buildings and this is chiefly due to the flag's design flying better in the dimensions 1:2; perspective distortion makes it look less elongated when flying. The 3:5 version is typically used on documents or print, but not traditionally as the physical flag when flown officially, so both arguments are valid. I personally find the 1:2 version more befitting of the design. UnknownBrick22 (talk) 00:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The flag flying from the Palace of Westminster is certainly not the 1:2 variant. Personal opinions about whether 1:2 or 3:5 is "more befitting the design" are not valid arguments. While the convention of 3:5 on land and 1:2 at sea may not be established in statute law, they are conventions that are generally respected. On Wikipedia the flags of England, Scotland and Wales are all depicted in the 3:5 ratio standard for land flags in the UK. In any case, the svg files used on Wikipedia are more akin to documents and print, they're static images, not snapping from a flagpole. 2.103.28.104 (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is no law about the aspect ratios, we need to look at real life examples. The most common variant is the 1:2 version, but the 3:5 variant is often used on land, as well as being used by the British Army. HOWEVER, since the British government uses 1:2 and its more commonly seen everywhere else, I think the page should show the 1:2 version with the 3:5 flag as a variant. 2601:647:4800:5700:4C22:D3DA:7C8B:4375 (talk) 03:01, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to A Complete Guide to Heraldry, the 1:2 version is an adaptation of the version designed by the Privy Council.

The 1911 Britannica uses the 3:5 version]
British driving licences use the 3:5 variant
British registration plates also use the 3:5 version
The Royal College of Arms states the 3:5 version is for use on land, and the 1:2 version for use at sea. In its article on flag etiquette gov.uk directs people to the Royal College of Arms for further guidance.

The College of Arms seems to be the most authoritative source, so I would suggest following their guidelines. Most depictions of British flags other than the Union Jack on Wikipedia use 3:5, such as the flag of St. George etc. Valethske (talk) 05:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2023

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Would you change the lead section, which is intended for superfluous bolding:

The national flag of the United Kingdom is the Union Jack, also known as the Union Flag.

112.205.163.46 (talk) 08:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done Lemonaka (talk) 09:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not like that, see the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section for MOS:BOLDLINKAVOID and MOS:TITLEABSENTBOLD. 112.205.163.46 (talk) 08:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ensigns

Is it normal to include ensigns in the infobox for national flag pages like this? I suppose they are flags plural of the United Kingdom. But isn't this article supposed to be about the flag of the United Kingdom? Wouldn't the more appropriate place for the ensigns be in their own section within the article or linked to at British ensign? I'm just conscious that there's no limit to the number of derivative flags which could be included like the civil air ensign. It goes on and on. Dgp4004 (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section

I was attempting to clarify the lead section and short description, As I said before per Wikipedia talk:Short description#"National flag" as short description, which "national flag" as description should not be intentionally blank. 49.150.13.247 (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That discussion hasn't led to any consensus for or against short descriptions on flags yet, so on any article, its short description can be intentionally blank, if the title is sufficient. Replacing a WP:SDNONE with the simple "National flag" is not necessary, it clarifies very little. Union Jack has its own article. Dank Jae 07:52, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is necessary to have short descriptions for flag articles. For example, in this article "flag of the United States", which is a UN member state, has short description under {{Short description|National flag}}, and for regional flags, like "flag of California", as well as "flag of Puerto Rico" had also short description. For intentionally blank short description articles, such as "list of", "index of", etc., are set to "none". 49.150.13.247 (talk) 09:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus for that yet. That is not what it says at WP:SDESC and WP:SDNONE.

Editors should keep in mind that short descriptions are meant to distinguish an article from similarly named articles in search results, and not to define the subject.

Wait until the outcome of your discussion but there is no exception for flags to all require a short description, standard practice applies, i.e. if an editor thinks the title is sufficient, a short description may be seen as unnecessary.

Plus adding "National flag" to "Flag of" in someways is equivalent to adding "Wikipedia list" to "List of", so comparable in insignificance.

But open should consensus at SD call for flags to all have a short description rather than the free-for-all. So wait for the consensus there. Dank Jae 11:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I've rangeblocked the OP for block evasion.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page duplication

Forgive me, this must have been discussed before but I've never figured out how to access talk page archives!

Isn't this page a duplication of Union Jack? Certainly the Union Jack is more than just the flag of the UK. But the flag of the UK is no more than the Union Jack. So shouldn't 'Flag of the United Kingdom' just be a redirect to 'Union Jack'? And the contents of this page that aren't just duplication made into a section, 'Useage in the United Kingdom' or some such?

The Flag of the UK article was created in 2010 it seems, and the Union Jack article was created in 2013. Dgp4004 (talk) 09:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the contents of this page are already paraphrased on the Union Jack page in a section called 'Status in the United Kingdom'. So it really is pure duplication here. Dgp4004 (talk) 09:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a proposed merge in Archive 1 which I guess didn’t go through. Merging this to Union Jack would mean the UK would be one of few to lack a flag article though. But they are duplicative. Nonetheless, must be formally proposed. Dank Jae 11:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]